Physics Based Rendering? What am I doing wrong?

[Timeless_16]

No matter what setting, there is virtually no difference in quality? I have seen post on this form that are significantly better! Any ideas? I added the standard rendering, the PBR rendering and a image to show my graphics card, which runs Sketchup and Podium render just fine.

[DavidJPotter]

I do not yet have my current copies of Home Designer Software. I have been using PBR within X11 Chief Premier for months. I am not sure what controls Home Designer Pro offers, relative to X11 but they should be the same.

 

This image is of what I am speaking of but in Chief Premier X11:

Until I obtain my own copy of HD Pro, I can only assume it should look like the above image. You adjust those settings and "Sunlight" to get dramatically better results but it takes a lot of time figuring it all out.

 

I just did a "Search" at the Home Designer website and could find NOTHING about Physical Based Rendering. Please call Chief Architect Sales to verify that any Home Deisgner title actually has PBR, OK?

DJP

[DavidJPotter]

As far as I know, based upon calling Chief Architect Sales and looking on their websites. You get more personal control and ability to fine-tune render views in Chief Architect X11 than in Home Designer Pro (I downloaded the trial version and looked at what was there), which in comparison to X11 was next to nothing. It is an upgrade over what was, before available in HD Pro (only "Standard Render"). If you want more control you have to spend the larger bucks.

 

DJP

[Timeless_16]

Okay,  thanks!

[Dominic900]

Hi Timeless-16,

 

Here are some images that I could not load when writing to you in messager.  the first is PBR and the 2nd is standard view. to show the difference.

 

Dominic 

[Timeless_16]

1 hour ago, Dominic900 said:

Hi Timeless-16,

 

Here are some images that I could not load when writing to you in messager.  the first is PBR and the 2nd is standard view. to show the difference.

 

Dominic 

Here is what I came up with after only a few minutes worth of work. 

The second image is the same model - minus the island that I exported to Sketchup and Rendered with Podium. 

The third image is of a Kitchen I did entirely in Sketchup when I switched from HD Pro to Sketchup and Podium. The last two of a Bathroom I did awhile back.

 

The issue with it (the second image that I tried exporting), is Sketchup only imports up to about 8-10 mb file sizes, bigger than that and it crashes. So if I want to improve render quality, I am going to have to figure out how to afford getting X11. Or experiment with some external rendering engines. 

[xJonQx]

Zachary,

I suspect you haven't changed a few key settings. Your graphics card could also be a factor.

First, so we can rule out your graphics card, please download and test the attached test plan I exported which has a camera in it setup for good PBR.

Here you can see there's clearly a difference between Standard and Physically Based:

  

Here are the settings I suspect you haven't tuned:

 

Adjust Lights

 

Use Light Settings - This will ensure that all of your lights will be used as part of the render, as opposed to a subset (up to Maximum Lights) being automatically chosen by the software.

 

Adjust Sunlight

I previously would toggle the Sun Off since it overpowered my interior lights.

I figured out I can adjust the Intensity of the Sun to create the right interior/exterior lighting balance depending on if i'm rendering an interior shot, exterior, day or night (a very low lux simulates the moon nicely).

I've provided examples of interior and exterior shots at different Sun intensities at the end of this post.

 

Edit Active Camera (on your PBR camera)

 

You definitely want to enable Show Shadows and probably Reflections as well.

 

Lastly you probably want to modify the Light Data for each of your lights. I modeled mine based on the PAR20 LED lights i'm using. I measured the Cut Off Angle from the real light, got the Lumens from the light packaging, and guesstimated the Drop Off Rate based on what looked like my lights:

 

 

...and, it should go without saying, that you need to add lights to your plan for any of this to work.

 

Don't forget we now have this handy tool to select all of the similar items so you can edit all your lights at once:

 

Also, just a reminder, if you always want the settings you changed above to take effect for new cameras, modify:

Edit > Default Settings > Camera Tools > Full Camera

 

 

 

While not mandatory, here are some other settings which affect the render for your reference:

Edit > Preferences > Render

 

 

Good luck, please let me know if this helps!

-Jon

 

Test Plan for Example Above:

HDPro_2020-PBR_Test.zip

 

Examples of Interior/Exterior Renders at different Sun Intensities:

(pay attention to the difference of the light through the windows)

 

  100,000 lux

-

  10,000 lux

-

  1,000 lux

-

  100 lux (nice balance for interior/exterior renders)

-

  10 lux

-

  2 lux (nice moonlight for interior render)

-

  1 lux

-

  0.1 lux (nice moonlight for exterior render)

-

  0.05 lux

-

 Sun Toggled Off

 

[Timeless_16]

2 hours ago, xJonQx said:

Zachary,

I suspect you haven't changed a few key settings. Your graphics card could also be a factor.

First, so we can rule out your graphics card, please download and test the attached test plan I exported which has a camera in it setup for good PBR.

Here you can see there's clearly a difference between Standard and Physically Based:

 

Here are the settings I suspect you haven't tuned:

 

Adjust Lights

 

Use Light Settings - This will ensure that all of your lights will be used as part of the render, as opposed to a subset (up to Maximum Lights) being automatically chosen by the software.

 

Toggle Sunlight (Off)

Interior lights seem to turn off or are overpowered when the Sun is on.

 

Edit Active Camera (on your PBR camera)

 

You definitely want to enable Show Shadows and probably Reflections as well.

 

Lastly you probably want to modify the Light Data for each of your lights. I modeled mine based on the PAR20 LED lights i'm using. I measured the Cut Off Angle from the real light, got the Lumens from the light packaging, and guesstimated the Drop Off Rate based on what looked like my lights:

 

 

...and, it should go without saying, that you need to add lights to your plan for any of this to work.

 

Don't forget we now have this handy tool to select all of the similar items so you can edit all your lights at once:

 

Good luck, please let me know if this helps!

-Jon

 

Test Plan for Example Above:

HDPro_2020-PBR_Test.zip

 

 

Jon,

 

Thanks, I will definitely try it when I get home this evening!

 

I'll let you know how it goes. I understand the sun thing but that is a bummer that it messes with the render so bad.

[Suggestions]

Hi Zachary...

 

I thought I'd chime in based on the images you've posted.

It looks to me like you might not be switching into the PBR Rendering Technique for your scenes. By default, all views start in our "Standard" Rendering Technique. You have to choose "Physically Based" to switch the render into that mode.

 

I'm including some screen captures to illustrate where you find these controls.

 

Standard

 

PBR

 

I hope this is helpful! Please share your results as you use the tools more!

[xJonQx]

Zachary,

I did some more experimentation and figured out how to get PBR to look good when the Sun is On. I revamped my post above with those details, so if you already started playing with the Test Plan, download the new one which has interior and exterior items and camera to show the inside/outside light balance.

I look forward to seeing your renders after to try some of these tips.

-Jon

[Timeless_16]

5 hours ago, xJonQx said:

Zachary,

I did some more experimentation and figured out how to get PBR to look good when the Sun is On. I revamped my post above with those details, so if you already started playing with the Test Plan, download the new one which has interior and exterior items and camera to show the inside/outside light balance.

I look forward to seeing your renders after to try some of these tips.

-Jon

 

Jon, 

I uploaded the test file, it looks like both images (looks like there were two) and both looked the same **both look like the standard view**, I am going to tweak the settings you gave me into my render and see what happens.

**UPDATE**

 

SUCCESS!!!! FINALLY, while it may not be as good as Chief Premier and whatever else some guys are throwing at it, it isn't too shabby and honestly, with texture tweaks, I think it could be close to Podium and maybe use Photoshop to clean the images up a little more. 

I do have one question though, you have in one of the screenshots that the hardware edge smoothing is "low". I did two image grabs of it on low and two of it on high, I think high took out the jaggedness of some of the edges. 
 

 

Then here are the two with the hardware edge smoothing set to high.

 

[Timeless_16]

Here are two more, first one, I added some kitchen accessories, the second I added in the sun, not thrilled with the variant of stainless steel on the appliances, but I'll take it. The are close to photo and not sacrificing more money for a render solution. 

Can't thank you enough! 

[xJonQx]

Awesome that you were able to get this to work! Those look great!

 

There are definitely other settings you can further tune this with: Hardware Edge Smoothing, Global Illumination, Reflections etc. -- just tune until you get the look you want.

 

Did you adjust your light fall-off? I bet you at a higher value this will look even smoother.

 

Also note that the light cut off angle isn't the same as the beam width you'll see on your light's packaging. Cut off is where there is zero light bleed, while the beam angle is some vendor value where the lumens drop below x% of the max lumens. My PAR20 bulbs had a published beam width of 40° on the packaging but I measured the cut off as 100° -- the renders looked much more realistic once I got that correct.

 

 

 

 

[Timeless_16]

4 minutes ago, xJonQx said:

Awesome that you were able to get this to work! Those look great!

 

There are definitely other settings you can further tune this with: Hardware Edge Smoothing, Global Illumination, Reflections etc. -- just tune until you get the look you want.

 

Did you adjust your light fall-off? I bet you at a higher value this will look even smoother.

 

Also note that the light cut off angle isn't the same as the beam width you'll see on your light's packaging. Cut off is where there is zero light bleed, while the beam angle is some vendor value where the lumens drop below x% of the max lumens. My PAR20 bulbs had a published beam width of 40° on the packaging but I measured the cut off as 100° -- the renders looked much more realistic once I got that correct.

 

 

 

 

I didn't mess with the fall off, I just used what you had as a base. I'll try more tomorrow. I am stoked right now, that was what I was trying for! I just pulled up some CA Premier kitchens and double side by side windowed two images, one of mine and one of the more expensive program and there is so little difference, in the CA Premier image the floor and counter top was more of a reflective shiny tone, so I am thinking that material can be tweaked..? If so, I am golden as can be!

I'll let you know how I progress. Again, thank you, you made my day!

[xJonQx]

In the settings I gave you, I did not show reflections enabled since there's currently a bug when rendering 360 panos if reflections are on. This bug doesn't affect regular renders. You'll still get some reflective surfaces with it off, but I think you get more with it on. I haven't experimented much with that yet, but you should probably turn it on.

[Timeless_16]

Here are the final renders, the only thing I didn't do was an outside view out the sliding glass door. 

[Donco15]

• Zachary  Your pics look great... I am in awe of the design...   Question.. Why does the kitchen look so dark. It is amazing what you have done.  It just looks dark.  I am curious is this what you were going for?  Or does the new program not have more lights in a kitchen?     I plan on upgrading to the new 2020 soon.
• Thanks for sharing these amazing renders and designs.

[Timeless_16]

3 hours ago, Donco15 said:

• Zachary  Your pics look great... I am in awe of the design...   Question.. Why does the kitchen look so dark. It is amazing what you have done.  It just looks dark.  I am curious is this what you were going for?  Or does the new program not have more lights in a kitchen?     I plan on upgrading to the new 2020 soon.
• Thanks for sharing these amazing renders and designs.

 

Thank you! 

 

As far as the renders go, I was kind of going for a darker night scene. If you follow the information above, you can add sunlight as well to make it a day scene. 

 

I just chose to do finish it more as a night time scene. You can certainly add more lights which will brighten it up as does the sun. I also experimented with daylight renders using the same rendering techniques but adding lighting from the sun and was seriously impressed as well with it.

 

I'm packing to move this weekend (we are quitting a little early tonight since my wife and I have to go back to work tomorrow), so I will open it up later this evening and show you a day version.

 

Lighting setting with realistic lighting data is the key along with the guide that Jon posted above!

[Timeless_16]

Donco15,

Here is a daylight image of that same kitchen.

[Donco15]

beautiful... thanks for sharing....

[Donco15]

I do a lot of condos where the kitchen does not have much natural light if any..

 

The PBR is definitely something that has a learning curve as I am finding out..

 

Thanks for sharing your beautiful designs.

[Donco15]

OK  - HERE IS MY FIRST PBR RENDER AND SOMETHING IS NOT QUITE RIGHT

 

TAKE A LOOK AT MY FILES AND TELL ME IF THIS IS THE BEST THAT I CAN HAVE WITHOUT A NATURAL SUNLIGHT COMING INTO THIS CONDO

THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK

 

I USED ALL OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT WERE SHARED IN FORUM FOR THE PBR AND THIS IS THE BEST THAT HAPPENS

 

THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK

 

D-

 

I HAVE HOME DESIGNER 2020

NVIDIA GRAPHICS

I7 PROCESSOR

WINDOWS 10

[xJonQx]

Donco15,

I'm curious if you have enough foot candles for that space. Depending on who you ask, kitchens should have 20-50 fc for general lighting, and 50-100 for task lighting (food prep, above the sink, above the stove etc.)

 

Here's a calculator where you can enter the dimensions of the kitchen and the total lumens for the bulbs you've place to see how many foot candles that equates to:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/everyday-life/lighting

 

I think that if you had lighting above the sink and under the cabinets it would look very different.

 

I'd be happy to play around with the PBR in your plan to see if I get better results. When I don't have any outside light I just turn the sun off altogether. The render seems to auto-expose for a combination of the sun and the internal light, so adjusting the sun's intensity didn't change the exterior render's brightness, but relatively speaking caused the interior lighting to be darker as the sun's intensity increased.

 

Can you post or plan (or even better, if it's small enough, do a Backup Entire Plan):

I'll take a look at it.

 

Regards,

Jon

 

[Donco15]

JON

THANKS....

 

I HAVE ATTACHED A LINK VIA GOOGLE DRIVE FOR THE FILE... IT IS MUCH TOO LARGE TO SEND - EVEN THE ZIP FILE IS 18MB - IT STARTS LAGGING WHEN I TRY AND ATTACH.

 

THERE IS NO WAY TO ADD UNDER CABINET LIGHTING IN THE HOME DESIGNER PRO - I SEARCHED FOR THIS YESTERDAY TO NO AVAIL.

 

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO CHANGE THE FOOT CANDLES

 

I ADDED 8 - 6 INCH LIGHTS AT 1200 LUMENS EACH TO TRY AND PROVIDE ENOUGH LIGHTING

IN THE VIEW IN KITCHEN

 

THANKS FOR LOOKING AT THIS FILE - I ZIPPED IT AND UPLOADED IT TO GOOGLE DRIVE

 

GOOGLE DRIVE - ZIP FILE OF HOME DESIGNER PRO FILE

[Donco15]

JON

 

PER YOUR LINK I NEED 431 FC

48272 LUMENS

 

I THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT THAT I DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH LIGHTS BECAUSE I HAVE 8 AT 1200 EACH = 9600 LUMENS

 

I TYPICALLY USE 8 RECESSED LIGHTS IN A KITCHEN AND UNDER CABINET LIGHTING - IN THE PHYSICAL SPACE - I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TOADD UNDERCABINET LIGHTING IN HOME DESIGNER PRO

 

THANKS FOR CHECKING OUT THE FILE.