MikeBaldus Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hi, I'm hoping the answer to this question will be easy for one of you gurus. As you can see in the screenshot, the window is dimensioning to the rough side of the jambs (window frame). The door in the same shot dimensions to the inside face of the jamb, which is what I would like and rather expected from the program. Having installed my share of both, I do realize that windows carry the complication of not always being specified by the same call-outs as doors (windows can be specified by glass size, masonry opening size, etc. or by sash opening size which is what I would prefer in this case). All that aside, I'm puzzled that the program is dimensioning to inside of jamb for doors but outside of jamb for windows. Even more puzzling considering they give you an option to specify Frame or no Frame (I have Frame) and you can specify the Frame thickness (plus it makes me wonder what they're thinking for a window without a frame?). As you can see from 2nd screenshot, I have Dimensioning set to Sides for Openings. Will I have no choice but to deduct the Frame thickness and do the extra math every time I tell the program a window size? Is there no way to force it to dimension to the inside face of the jambs (frames)? Really hoping you can tell me what option I need to change! Thank you, Mike P.S. I'll be happy to attach the plan file if this becomes complicated enough to require it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solver Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I don't believe you can automatically do what you want. Tell us what is wrong with how the program is working now. For windows and doors, it seems like rough opening is the important measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBaldus Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Hi Eric, 11 hours ago, solver said: Tell us what is wrong with how the program is working now. The program is using the rough side of the window frames as both the "dimension to" point as well as the "specify to" point. It doesn't behave that way for doors, instead it behaves as one would expect: If you specify to the program that you want a 3'-0" x 6'-8" door (36" x 80") it will do the following: Give you a door that is the same size you specified. All dimensioning snaps to the finish side of the door jambs so dimensioning agrees with the door size. Produces a "call-out" size for the door that makes sense in the real world. As you can see in my new screenshot, the 3068 above the door is the "call-out" for a 3-0 x 6-8 door, just what you would tell the supplier (along with door thickness). For windows, it does all those same things except it uses the rough side of the window jamb. *I deleted a paragraph or two here where I sidetracked into talking about how windows (especially double hung) were traditionally built and ordered vs. methods today. So that was the long way of saying that the program should be treating windows just as it does doors: use the inside dimensions of the frame as the "dimension to" and specify to" points. Ideally it would use the finish face of jamb/frame as default but allow you to change that to rough opening in an option. BTW It's not using rough opening as you stated. For doors it uses inside of frame and for windows outside of frame. As you can see in the new screenshots, I specified a rough opening space of 1/2" on each side and it drew the framing accordingly. Both the dimensioning snaps and the call-out specification of 24310DH use the rough side (also called O.M. or outside measurements) of window jamb, not the rough opening. So you think there is no way to get the program to measure to inside faces of windows? The biggest reason I care at the moment is because I'm drawing up an existing building and that's the easiest place to measure to as you work around a room. Side note on HD Pro building the rough openings: On the window in the screenshot I left the default 1/2" space in each side and it drew the framing that way. On the door I let it default to 1" (which I thought was excessive) but it drew the space to what looks like 1/4". This may be a bug. Thank you, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solver Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, MikeBaldus said: So you think there is no way to get the program to measure to inside faces of windows? The biggest reason I care at the moment is because I'm drawing up an existing building and that's the easiest place to measure to as you work around a room. The defaults you see are what you have. Don't you still need the actual window dimension? Are you saying the program is wrongly dimensioning a window? If I want a 3040 window, I enter those dimensions as 36" high and 48" wide. If I measure an existing window and only get a partial (inaccurate) measurement, then I also need determine how much to add or subtract to produce a valid dimension, which I would then enter into the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBaldus Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Ha! Well I see it's just a matter of perspective! 1 hour ago, solver said: If I measure an existing window and only get a partial (inaccurate) measurement, then I also need determine how much to add or subtract to produce a valid dimension, which I would then enter into the program. For my purposes of simply locating and sizing existing windows onto a plan, the finish faces of the frame are "accurate", and not incomplete. Why would I need to know or state the dimension of the rough side of the frame? Or even a rough opening for this purpose? I know where the outside edges of the interiors casings will be (so I don't place a cabinet in conflict for instance) because the program is designed to let me tell it the frame thickness and how much the interior casing will cover that. I can certainly see that for new construction using the outside measurements of the frame could be useful. But for the placing existing windows on a plan, I must measure to what I can see and then deduct for the frame in order to accurately place the window on the plan. 1 hour ago, solver said: If I want a 3040 window, I enter those dimensions as 36" high and 48" wide. You accidentally stated that backwards, width is always first. A 3040 would be 36" wide and 48" high. Many people don't know this today: the origin of a spec like 3040 came from how windows were measured in the long gone single pane glass days (when all DH windows were constructed in a very similar way). The spec measured the width of jamb opening and the height of jamb opening from top jamb down to sill at the outside face of lower sash. That was the standard. And from the frame/jamb opening you could deduct a set amount (I forget, but I think it was 5" for width and 6" for height) to get glass size. Likewise you could order by glass size and know what the finished opening would be by adding those numbers. And the jambs were all 3/4" thick, so any carpenter knew that adding 2 1/2"" to width would give a rough opening with a 1/2" play on each side. Today, every manufacturer builds windows in an entirely proprietary manner. There are no industry standards, all dimensioning is relative. I digressed. I had been trying to avoid that. Thanks for being there to help Eric. I'll just have to do a little extra math as I place the 29 windows on this house. Perhaps in a future release they will add the option. Many thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solver Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I'm trying to understand, so let me attempt to summarize. Your question is not about how windows are dimensioned in plan, but how you enter the dimension. You would like to enter an inside dimension and have the software add whatever additional you have specified (frame/jamb) etc. Did you know that you can do math within the entry field? You could enter 24+1.5, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBaldus Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 30 minutes ago, solver said: Your question is not about how windows are dimensioned in plan, but how you enter the dimension. No, actually my question originally was about how HD Pro dimensions windows as opposed to doors. My problem was that HD Pro uses the rough side of the jamb instead of the finish side like it does for doors, and that it doesn't have an option to change that behavior. Because that behavior does not appear to be changed by a user, I will have no choice but to do math on the fly. 47 minutes ago, solver said: You would like to enter an inside dimension and have the software add whatever additional you have specified (frame/jamb) etc. For the purposes of sizing and locating existing windows onto a plan, I don't actually care that the program allows me to specify a jamb thickness, etc. It's not relevant in this case (if I were building new then I would appreciate the added functionality). I only mentioned it because it seemed odd that they gave users all that fine detail of options (jamb thickness, space between jamb and rough opening, casing reveal) but didn't give us the option of telling the program to use the other surface. As I mentioned before, it was a little harder for me to accept personally simply because I know the history of window making and sizing. Traditionally the interior dimension was the relevant dimension. But I feel I've already beat that horse so I'll move on. 1 hour ago, solver said: Did you know that you can do math within the entry field? You could enter 24+1.5, for example. No, I did not know that - good to know! Unfortunately, here's what's still going to be required: I'm in a real world room, measuring everything, sketching it on paper to later build as a plan in HD Pro. I measure the room dimensions, including any offsets, alcoves, etc. and sketch it. I measure doorways, from surface of wall at a nearby corner to the edge of the opening, add them to the sketch. I measure a window, from surface of wall at a nearby corner to the edge of the opening. That's all I have to measure to. I can't see the back side of the jamb or the rough opening, and I don't care anyway. The only other thing there is to measure to would be the inner or outer edge of casings, but I don't know why I'd ever want to do that. So next I measure across the window, from face of jamb to face of jamb, and write that distance down. I then measure from the most recent face of jamb to the next corner, write that down. Proceed around room. I go back to computer, try to tell HD Pro what the distance is from corner to edge of window, it wants to use the rough side of jamb, not the face, so I have to deduct 3/4". I try to tell HD Pro what size the window is, I have to add 1-1/2". None of the dimensions I have written on my sketch at the site are going to match to the plan. My only choice is to do the math as I write down every measurement at the site, or do the math as I create the HD Pro plan and review several times because nothing matches my paper - what I drew in the real world. That would all have been easily prevented if they had allowed me to set an option to make the program behave the same way it already does at doors - dimension to the finish surface of the opening. I appreciate your patience Eric. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidJPotter Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I have been using this software since 1995 without a single problem or hitch on remodeling, custom homes and lite commercial construction documents. Not a single Architect, Structural Engineer or Builder-developer has ever had any complaints. So forgive me if I fail to grasp what you mean exactly by "rough side". I have observed that this software's defaults for dimension - locate objects - openings can be set in any required industry standards, metric or imperial. I have observed that once defaults are properly set the software dimensions exactly the same for windows and doors. Perhaps we are merely arguing over the definitions of terms that we are using, I do not know. I am sorry you are not satisfied. Perhaps we are all out of step but you? DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBaldus Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 David, My apologies if I have touched a nerve by the clumsy way I must be putting things. I must have somehow come off as arrogant, but nothing could be further from the truth. Somehow in spite of feeling like I've been over-explaining, I see I've been unable to convey the heart of the subject matter. So clearly what I've been doing in this medium, including the screenshots, isn't working. I'm hoping I can do better by phone. I'm a complete novice here, so your statement about being out of step must surely be me. Now that you mention it, I admit I've been out of step with most of the world for a long time... I'm completely baffled though; normally I don't have this much trouble communicating. I really thought the first screenshot said it all. And by "rough side" I mean the outside surface of the window jamb (as in outside measurements of frame). I chose the term "rough side" because I was afraid saying "outside" might confuse people - "outside" can also mean "exterior". So I chose "rough side" and "finish side", "finish side" being the inside faces, or sash opening, and "rough side" being the outside faces, or O.M. (outside measurement). I'm going to send you a private message with my phone number in the hope that you will spare me a moment of your time, and that I can convey the point over the phone. I'm also attaching the plan file now, since the screen shots have failed to communicate. Thank you, Mike 300 Franklin.plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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