16' x 16' footprint Farmhouse challenge

[Kbird1]

Structural ridge. Glulam, PSL, LSL, solid, built up.

 

How the roof is tied into the porch roofs may also impact this issue.

 

That's how I'd do it too , prefer built up LSL , especially if working alone , the post placement can effect Windows etc below but a header on the 1st flr can spread that load too if needed.

 

FYI ...Code in some areas does not allow Doors directly at the top of staircases ,due to the fall hazard....

 

Did you get those Files Scott? i'll delete them off OneDrive if you have thx.

[Jo_Ann]

Just for fun, here's another idea.  

[solver]

Like the spiral stair. Space saving.

 

If you have the floorspace, like a 2 car garage, consider using tape to layout a plan or two. Ideally a bit of furniture and cardboard for cabinets will give you an idea of space.

 

Older homes often started with an outhouse, then added on a bathroom. Having a downstairs bath outside the 16x16 space would free up some floor area, and give the exterior a bit more character.

 

2x4 construction with exterior foam will give you a few extra inches inside, and a well enough insulated wall.

[Perkins47]

Eric, I am continually thinking about your suggestion for taking the stairs outside the 16x16 space as nothing is too crazy...  In fact I am reminded of my early

favorite Cape Cod style homes where in the 1800s  whenever the wealthy built their home they had the resources to build something like a partial basement

but I think the space may only have been for storage of veggies.   ie "root cellar" ? ?    Anyway,  all these Cape Cods had what looked like not much more than

a large dog house connected to the rear part of the house side ... certainly not as much as what we see for small front porch stoops etc and this little dog house

had the entry door and stairs down into the root cellar.     I dont think there was access to the stairs from inside the house.    I was just kind of thinking what a little

bump out might do for our stair way headroom situation....   As well. we could put the entire stairs outside and maybe enter the stairwell from inside and

then reenter the house on the 2nd floor.    I saw a photo last night in a book with exterior stairs that did not look too bad,   I have not had a working scanner

for a few years..... BUT I DO have a digital camera.   Let me work on it a bit and I will try to share.   In fact there were five or six pics of interest.   The book

was called Small Houses of the Future I think.

 

Regarding spiral stairs... other than the higher cost of building... I wonder if spiral stairs with the same diameter as the width of two stairways feel as comfortable

climbing and descending ?

[Perkins47]

Outhouses to Bathrooms....   I have  a collection of old House plans going back to 1885 and up to 1942  and in these 18 or 20 sets of plans the first

appearance of a Bathroom or any special room to go potty in in any of the plans is in 1920.   And some of these plans were gigantic 3000, 4000 sq

feet 3 story mansions etc.    It is the weirdest thing to not see any restrooms or dedicated bathing areas in a house that size.  Certainly no showers

but I thought maybe there might have been rooms with tubs etc.  But nope !

[solver]

This one is larger. Started out as a way of putting the stair outside the main area and evolved back to a square.

 

Plenty of room upstairs for a full bath. 

[Kbird1]

I  like that one better , though I'd bring the Shed Roofs to the Front wall of the 2nd Storey and use the extra Room upstairs , whether the roof is a gable or shed you are gonna pay about the same , so flap those two gable roof up and use the extra space , the sqft. of roofing is still the same either way +/- a few feet whether it on the 1st or 2nd floor... it should also allow for larger/ more Windows on the 2nd floor for that all important cross ventilation and "Chimney Effect".

 

M.

[solver]

I did a bunch of roofs for this one, including what you suggested. I was going for the small house that had been added on to several times look.

 

At some point, it must make sense to do a full 2nd floor, or not?

 

This plan seems like you could live there full time, where the 16x16 plans seem like space for a weekend or week.

[Kbird1]

I did a bunch of roofs for this one, including what you suggested. I was going for the small house that had been added on to several times look.

 

At some point, it must make sense to do a full 2nd floor, or not?

 

This plan seems like you could live there full time, where the 16x16 plans seem like space for a weekend or week.

 

Nothing wrong with the Look ........in a small space every square ft makes a difference though and without increasing cost much if at all you can get more space for the same $$$ amount especially since it is a new build.

 

One other consideration is Family ......you got a Cabin at the Lake..... you are gonna have Visitor's guaranteed , so the Full 2nd Floor with another Bedroom makes sense even if you only use it for when him..or her is snoring  mostly   or as an Office etc.

 

May depend on the budget too , but most aren't going to want to live too small for too long ,may even make sense to go one more sheet of plywood, eg 24x16 main floor and stay 16 x16 above especially if for a 4 season Cabin .

 

M.

[Perkins47]

Eric your latest plan is certainly appealing though I might have some difficulty in framing the 2nd floor roof as drawn.   I think when we get into the 

complexity and extra details we can just go ahead and get the full 2nd floor with a flat ceiling with little or no extra cost and  a smallish uninhabitable 

attic if we were to use for instance a low slope 4-12 roof pitch.   With a full height 2nd floor and obligatory full 2nd floor bath I think the dwelling 

could become a full time residence again even in a 16x16 footprint. 

 

I am still trying to max out what I call the economy car version with a full bath downstairs and mini fridge and 2 burner stove and single bowl sink

kitchen .

 

I did see something interesting in your latest downstairs bath sink (with the wrapped around stairway) area....   It occurs to me that bath sink

area is very close to being a shower area as well.....   a shower that you would step through to get to the toilet.   It might require a swinging

shower door in front of the toilet right where your kneecaps would be when sitting on it.   I say swinging because I have never seen

a waterproof sliding shower door anywhere but on the top of a bathtub side about 18 or 20 inches high.    We can easily draw a sliding

shower door in the plans however.   Or we could omit the toilet stall door but I could never imagine sitting on a wet toilet right after someone took

a shower.   A shower in this location would provide a dual function for the normally required front of toilet clearance area with a very minimum

of inconvenience.... or none if there is only a single occupant in the dwelling.

 

Speaking of low slope roofs .....  I 've always questioned the wisdom of some of those nearly full width dormer shed roofs and thought to myself,

why not just go an extra foot on both sides and make it a full house width roof.  The framing, and siding and roofing are all much simpler but perhaps

not as "fancy" looking.  I say spend the money on improving the quality of the things that really work and not waste a lot of money on gimmick 

looking details.  

 

And BTW, I very much like the wrap around outside porch.  I cannot think of many things that give a better return for your money than a covered porch.

 

And if we are evolving to full 2nd floors... we might as well have a 2nd floor deck to walk out onto....   actually from  an inside shower stall on the outside

wall with clear glass patio doors ....   Just slide the outer door open and you would be very close to taking a shower outside.

 

When I built my mom a house 15 years ago, she wanted a lot of fake dormers all over the house and I suggested we simply take the same money

and put it in extra insulation and higher grade maintenance free windows.  Today she is very glad we followed my suggestion.

[solver]

Here is the larger version, same lower floor, simpler roof. Needs full bath downstairs.

[solver]

Back to 256 sq ft, but not 16x16. Minimal kitchen, but full bath down. Roof ridge could run either was as shown in the last image.

 

 

[solver]

I'd be considering a single floor design as well. This one is 374 sq ft, and provides reasonably sized kitchen and bath. 

 

 

[Perkins47]

Here is a pretty interesting video of a 16x16 shed that shows the

impressive space available on 2^nd floor without extensive extra effort.

 

Gambrel roof 16x16 shed at Home Depot

 

I would have 3 ridge beams for strength and stick build each gambrel member (?) on the roof

It will be overbuilt for reasons of insulation but being extra strong isnt always bad.

 

I would mount at top of 2x6stud exterior wall a 2x12 as a third top plate with the excess

hanging to the outside and shimmed slightly so that as an overhang for the outside wall

it would tilt down slightly for water runoff. This 2x12 will also exist as a beam at the top of

the walls to resist

pushout from the weight of the Gambrel roof even though I plan to put gussets on both

sides of the 2x8 Gambrel members. I could probably use 2x6s but I need the thickness

for foam insulation. Each Gambrel truss member cut so that it will take one and a half sheets

of plywood or 6 ft total to minimize plywood waste.

So to span 16 feet I will have 24 feet of linear roof across the top spanning four truss components.

 

I want to place the 1^st floor ceiling height at 7 feet mimicking the 1800s Cape Cod houses

and use 2x6 floor joist members

to have the lowest possible 2^nd floor height which will provide a little bit more head

room on the 2^nd floor. I will be using 8 ft exterior wall studs

and I will be creating somewhat of a knee wall effect. The slight knee wall plus the

Gambrel roof shape should result in a surprising amount of space on the 2^nd floor

 

Along side (sistered)  the 2x6 exterior wall studs I will have shortened 2x4 studs which the

2x6 ceiling or 2^nd floor joists will rest upon. No 2x6 will span greater than 8 feet.

This is kind of a balloon framing or post and beam technique. I just dont want to

rely on hangars and connectors etc. A 2x4 is cheaper and more reliable as a post

anyway.

 

some modular stair photos attached providing non code compliant rise over run

performance with conventional hand rails and appearance while actually using

the theory of alternating stair step tread design.

 

See attached photos of these stairs installed. These modular stairs have about an

inch and a half in rise adjustment per each stair So that should give them a lot

of utility in my application as far as getting the perfect fit.

 

Unfortunately my Home Designer program will not allow me to design for these

stairs as it will not allow stairs beyond typical code angle of ascent. These stairs

and the low floor will reduce some of the overall footprint taken by the stairs

and may allow for other design options which I have to explore. I anticipate the

stair total package will cost about $1500 and seems justifiable although stairs

could be hand built for much less but could not look as nice for the same price

I feel.

 

 

[Perkins47]

I revisited the HomeDepot video and it occurs to me that the Gambrel components may be larger than my six foot sections as they look really big in the video and

a whole lot of space on the 2nd floor.   I may enlarge my Gambrel components as I evaluate options but it does appear that it is easier and cheaper to gain  2nd floor

volume by  increasing Gambrel members than by adding higher and higher knee walls  although I am swapping my desired "Farmhouse" look for a "Barn"

look unless you are from Holland.

 

Just think... an extension of the outside two members of the Gambrel roof by one foot just about raises the interior ceiling height by one foot as well.

 

Regarding the modular stairs... it would be a shame to conceal them in a closed stairway but I must find a way to close off airflow between floors

and I guess it will have to be done with a landing up top with a door there.   Sliding doors are convenient but cannot approach a conventional

door in air tightness.

[solver]

Why not build a second floor using standard wall framing?

 

Easy to place windows on any wall. Use all the floor space.

 

I've never understood the gambrel roof form on small spaces. 

 

Roofing is more expensive than siding.

 

2x6 floor joist need mid span support.

 

Balloon framed walls generally use a let in ledger to support the end of the joist, not sistered studs.

 

Wood is a poor insulator, and filling your wall cavities with additional wood will not help with insulation.

 

I'll suggest again a 2x4 wall with rigid foam on the exterior. This almost completely eliminates thermal bridging, and gives you a few more inches on the interior.

[Perkins47]

Eric, you always give me a lot of thought provoking ideas and we have seen a large list of temptations most of which result in

unarguable enhancement but with overall scope creep that I am trying to avoid for  a while but want to keep in reserve for later

options.

 

Yes roofing is more expensive than siding but  be fair about the cost of siding... also add the cost of roofing on top of the siding and the extra framing for the roof on top

of the siding ....   I am not so sure a whole 2nd floor is cheaper than Gambrel  but you are absolutely right about windows.   I just see the Gambrel now

as a 25 percent more expensive roof that brings the most space at a super lowest unit cost when averaged out.  It is not deluxe but  7 ft ceiling downstairs,

and loft space enlarged by Gambrel does in fact provide the absolute least unit cost volume space and it is generously livable without having to climb ladders

and crawl around on hands and knees upstairs etc etc.   

 

Re the foam on the exterior.... If I lived in the Arctic or Arizona the hottest state in the country  I maybe could place thermal properties over ruggedness but I dont know

how I could toughen the exterior foam affordably.... It would ( in my mind require another layer of siding) ? ? ?

 

I envisioned the 2x4  post in the 2x6 wall as being on the interior side leaving 2 inches of space to the outside so as to not increase thermal bridging all the way to the

exterior.   But you are right, it is a tradeoff of structural vs thermal considerations...  Gotta have a little give and take and I needed a way to drop the ceiling and support

the 2nd floor loads .....   Maybe I could notch out 2 inches of the 2x6 wall stud and inset the 2x6 2nd floor joists in the notch and supplement with some kind of Simpson

strap ....and/or bracket the floor joist inserted into the wall stud notch much like they do with the gussets on the Gambrel truss members....   That would sturdy up

the connection and not reduce the strength of the 2x6 at the notch to any lower than a std 2x4.     The mid span support for the 2x6 was what you pointed out to me

and what a great idea that can be taken advantage only with certain floor plans.   There are many more deluxe options but I am fairly convinced that for any given

footprint size a Gambrel in this manner will provide the most useable floor space per unit cost.    The Home Depot shed really opened my eyes to the Gambrel design.

 

and still use the 

[solver]

If this structure will be permitted, I would be discussing my ideas with the local code enforcement people. Finding out about stairs, room ceiling heights etc.

 

For showing the stairs in plan, and camera views, consider using a ladder. You will need to source one made in Sketchup, since bonus catalogs are not available for your version.

 

You have mentioned several times about wanting a well insulated structure, which prompted my suggestion of a foam outer layer. This is standard practice in many areas. 

 

You may google "balloon framing" and see images of how it's usually done.

 

I think you are over thinking/over engineering the structure. No need to reinvent standard practice.

 

Update us with your latest floor plan -- it's always interesting to see others ideas.

[solver]

256 sq ft down. Bit less up. Easy to build shed roof.

[Perkins47]

Brilliant !   Just when I think we have exhausted all the possibilities you come up with something else.  I can see the

many advantages for the slight extra cost.   

 

Btw, my original inspiration for he 16 x 16 cabin was from looking at the following two plans and selecting the design layout

of the smaller 12x12 prospectors cabin  and increasing the size to be closer to the Pioneers cabin which is actually 16x20.

I felt that by utilizing the entire 2nd floor space instead of an keeping an open loft, enough space could be saved to scale back on the footprint

size to 16x16.   I think that is easily achievable were it not for the "regular stairs" requirement instead of using a ladder.

 

http://www.tinyhousedesign.com/pioneers-cabin-16x20/

 

http://www.tinyhousedesign.com/prospectors-cabin-12x12/

 

Here is the site that has further ( in addition to the Home Depot video)  educated me about modifying

the Gambrel roof components   http://www.backyardbuildings.com/products/16x16-Everest.html      

 

take a look at the 16x16 garage shed and look at the interior photos.

 

Eric, early on you referenced two different kinds of exterior insulation and I have not had

a chance to research those two techniques.... Since you live in Arizona I know you must

be well schooled in insulation and I am wondering now if these "exterior insulations" are additive

to what is already done inside a wall resulting in a super insulation system overall.

 

At this point it seems crazy to me to think about hollow walls with insulation on the outside 

but all you guys in Arizona the hottest state must be the experts.

 

[solver]

Arizona has a diverse climate, from Sahara like deserts, to thick green forest. Where I live, AC is optional, but heat is mandatory.

 

Winter in my Arizona -- that's about 20" on the ground. This area burned in 2000, or you would be looking at a pine forest.

 

 

Lets look at your gambrel roof.

 

 

Push the roof sides out so they are vertical, add top plates, extend the rafters. You now have a conventional second floor space with a small increase in cost for the additional framing.

 

Unless you like the look of the gambrel roof, I still don't see it as a way to save money, or to get a better structure.

 

I just like the look of exposed framing. I'd build a timber framed house, if they were not so expensive. When I do build, I want to incorporate some exposed framing, just for the look. 

 

Screen capture from an episode of Home Again by Bob Vila, showing the idea.

 

 

Will continue with insulation later.

 

 

 

 

[Perkins47]

Log Cabins and Timber Frame etc homes look very nice but  in my immediate family there have been two family homes

completely burnt to the ground.   I am now a believer in FireBarrier and sheet-rock etc.    No one exposes the  beauty

of wood with the thought of it ever burning but unfortunately it does.  Sometimes "code"  makes sense.

 

Back in '97 or '98 a very strange situation developed with lumber shortage when all metal frame buildings mimicking traditional wood structures

were cheaper to build and if you selected the buildout materials properly would be fireproof with thousands of dollars of insurance savings

over lifetime of home.  

[solver]

Building with a 2x4 wall gives you an additional 10 sq ft over a 2x6 wall in a 16x16 house. Make it a rectangle and the difference is greater because of the additional wall needed.

 

From Building Green - How Much Insulation Is Enough?

 

 

For example, if you install R-19 fiberglass batts in 2x6 frame walls, with the studs 16 inches on-center, double top-plates, and other elements of "standard" framing, the actual R-value of the whole wall with the R-19 insulation will be about R-15. The whole-wall R-value is lower because of "thermal bridging" through the wood framing.

 

How will you use the house? If this is an occasional weekend getaway, then maybe standard insulation practices are good enough. Insulation is expensive and it would be easy to over insulate where the additional cost of insulation would never pay for itself.

 

Air sealing is as important as insulation, and a well detailed, well sealed house will perform like it is better insulated.

 

In your climate (Climate Zone 3) I would build the wall like this. Typically referred to as a rain screen wall. 

 

The exterior foam eliminates thermal bridging and adds insulation. The furring strips space the siding away from the structure and create a vented channel for moisture to escape. 

 

From the inside out. 

 

1. Drywall
2. 2x4 studs with cavity insulation
3. Sheathing
4. Rigid Foam
5. House Wrap
6. Vertical Furring Strips
7. Siding

See Building Science Corp and Green Building Advisor for lots more info.

 

I mentioned REMOTE and PERSIST earlier. Both are used mostly in Alaska and Canada, although they perform well in warmer climates too. Expensive because they both depend on thick exterior rigid foam for insulation. 

[solver]

Have you seen the SHELDON DESIGNS Ct-103 Micro Cottage?

 

16ft x 16ft with front porch.
9ft x 9-1/2ft. bumpout 1 Bedroom with 1 full bath.
56 sf of porches.  

1st. Floor Area = 354 sf
2nd, Floor Area = 170 sf
Total Living Area = 524 sf

 

It's the plan i thought of when you first described what you were wanting. A bit bigger, but you get a well thought out plan.

 

They also have the Classic Micro Cabin Plan (Plan #C103) a 16x16 with full bath, tiny kitchen and loft.

[Kbird1]

Some good ideas there  Eric.... I kinda like the Surfside with the wraparound Porch , you could eliminate the downstairs Bedroom I guess and make upstairs one larger Master Suite, but a Guest bedroom is always good.

 

M.