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Avocado

Roof design issues over kitchen / in courtyard

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I have an awkward? looking roof over the kitchen and am working on resolving this. The roof is running into the wall of the living room. Would a cricket work here or do I need to redo the roof ?

Also, I am unsure of the steps I should take when I put myself into a corner like this. Should I completely eliminate the roof as it looks, possibly raise some walls to give it a different look or ? What approach would you take? Trying to get a ranch hacienda style (exposed rafter tails,posts,beams,wood soffit, courtyard and low pitch, multi-gable roof lines. The roof that covers the walkway in the courtyard needs to tie in to the roof on the North side. Right now it is a few inches lower and not tied together. What is the best approach to do this ? Any ideas are welcome.

Thanks!

DeLuz_2.22_rafter_tails.plan

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You can select the roof plane over the walkway and use Transform/Replicate to move it up on the Z axis by about 5 1/2" and then use Join Roof Planes to connect it to the plane behind it.  Not quite sure I follow the other questions on the roof though.

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Got it - I raised up the roof plane over the walkway to get the roof planes to meet using the dimension tool in section view, then I increased the "room" height to raise the posts to the correct height. Thanks...

 

I noticed my kitchen roof planes are not meeting at the ridge and I still have to deal with a cricket? somehow... Anyone?

 

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A few ideas. 

 

It's fairly typical on a house like this with angles to use parapet walls and very low slope roofs where sections join at other than 90 degrees.

 

You have a good start here. I think a house like this should look like it has evolved over time, so all the different roof planes make sense.

 

I've designed before starting with a small space, then adding additional structure as it might have been done.

 

 

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Yes - that is exactly what I was shooting for. Thank you. I will work on this. 

 

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Couple of ideas. All need refinement.

 

And a suggestion. Get the floor plan as you want before working on the roof. 

 

 

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I do like the ideas. Thanks, but I don't have that much space front to back on the property due to the slope of the property...more room  left to right (looking a the entry)

Still working on the steps to get the kitchen roof done correctly. 

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Have you tried auto building the roof?

 

I easily came very close, and could have done better with a bit more effort. For any complex roof, I'll always start with an auto build to see if it's close, then manually modify as needed.

 

 

 

Avocado 0.jpg

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Ok, so mine does not look like yours. I've attached the image and the plan as well. There is one problem I noticed yesterday - The garage on the top right and the 1st room coming is had a ceiling height set at 125 +/- so i removed the roofs and set them to 120" which is what I originally planned. I manually redid the roofs except I am a bit stuck as to where to go next. Trying to get to where you were (I've attached one of your renderings but added roof plane numbers, I didn't have a problem creating roof planes 1 and 2 together, then 3 to 2.

Next I created 4 to 5 roof planes but I don't understand the process/steps taken to connect roof plane 5 to 2 and 3 and also 4 to 3.

The attached plan shows where I am stuck on... 

I've also changed the height of the roof (increasing) so it would tie in to the roof over the Bedrooms 2 and 3.

AutoRebuildRoof 2.24.pdf

DeLuz_2_23.ceilingto10ftcorrected.plan

Roof planes.pdf

Edited by Avocado
clarified additional change

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I think doing an auto build is the best way to get started.

 

Looking at the plan, it needs to be cleaned up before working on the roof.

 

In a copy of your plan...

 

Start by setting all your defaults. Structure and Roof.

 

Then Edit>Reset To Defaults. Select All Floors, check all the boxes, then OK.

 

Manually set ceiling heights as required in rooms where it's non standard. 

 

Select all the walls you want gabled, and set them as Full Gable.

 

Build the roof.

 

You should be very close.

 

Remember, roofs build over rooms, ceiling heights control the position of the roof above. 

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For manual roofs.

 

1) In plan, align the bottom of the blue with the top of the red. Take the ridge height from red, open blue, lock the pitch, set the fascia height to match the red ridge height.

 

This lowers blue, and makes the 2 planes join correctly. Pull the blue ridge back a bit and join it at the ridge.

 

2) Decide how the green roof needs to join to blue and red. I'll assume the fascia heights should match green and red.

 

Set the overhang on green. Get the fascia height from red, open green, lock pitch and change the fascia height.

 

Pull the edge of green facing blue back -- you want to give it room to join. Place a break along that edge and pull it out to form a V.

 

You want to guide the program, and adding breaks is needed especially where you have different pitches.

 

Work your way around manually shaping each plane to get it close, then join them with the program.

 

 

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For the Roof defaults, since I am planning on using trusses (2x4's), then bolting the exposed rafter tail (4 x 6,notched to height of 2x4 and also notched to accept the tongue and groove soffit, in the defaults settings, I should set the rafter to 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, correct?

 

Since I want to show the renderings with the exposed rafter tails and to do this in HD PRO 2017, the only way around this (that I know) is to resize the rafters, should I set the rafters to 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 ?

 

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Thanks for the explanation on the working the roof planes together. Wow - I will have to read it a few times to get my head wrapped around it. This will be great practice!

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5 minutes ago, Avocado said:

I should set the rafter to 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, correct?

 

It depends on how the truss is built. You need to know the Heel Height. One big advantage to auto building the roof, is things like this are easy to change. Although the exterior appearance will change -- the entire roof structure will move up or down.

 

Try it with that setting, build framing, take a cross section and see how it looks. 

 

truss%20heel%20height.gif

 

You might need a Raised Heel truss.

 

panelOverlap.gif

 

If the truss is built like the lower one, a 3-1/2" rafter should work.

 

87426_EnergyHeelTrussArticle.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Avocado said:

Thanks for the explanation on the working the roof planes together

 

Manual roofs just take a bit of practice. They may be moved around in many ways, using Copy/Reflect About, or Transform/Replicate for example. Just need to think about where the edges need to be to connect to an adjoining plane.

 

Learning to place breaks in edges is key, and really helps when connecting planes with different slope.

 

There are good videos on YouTube. Search for advanced roof.

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Excellent- Thanks for all your help! I now have some homework to do...I'll be back

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3 hours ago, Avocado said:

Since I want to show the renderings with the exposed rafter tails and to do this in HD PRO 2017, the only way around this (that I know) is to resize the rafters, should I set the rafters to 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 ?

 

Forgot to say -- yes.

 

There is a second way that's tedious and time consuming, but will give the most accurate representation.

 

It uses a separate roof plane for the overhang. Stop the primary roof plane at the outer wall edge. Its structure represents reality. Use a 2nd roof plane for the overhang -- T&G instead of OSB for sheathing, larger framing members to represent the exposed framing etc.

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Monday update - After 4 versions of the layout, I believe I have narrowed it down to one. Will have to get to the property in the next couple weeks and make sure I have the room for the pad. In the meantime, I have been trying to figure out how to get a more accurate visual (height wise) of the exposed rafter tails, no frieze board - It will continue with stucco between the rafter tails. So after too much time, I think I may have the solution and would like to know if this all works out. I have attached a sample file as well to show what I did.

1. Build roof - specs - √ trusses ( no birds mouth). Under structure, change rafter width from 1 1/2" default to 4". Then to Build Framing: trusses:Member Depth - changed top chord depth to 6".  With the fascia all turned off as well as gutters off, I was able to get exposed rafter tails in the correct dimension. Next step  was to add the heel height (12") for the trusses - I went back to Build Roof - Roof Height: Raise/Lower from ceiling height - entered in 6".  6" of raising roof + 6" of top chord of truss = 12" total. Finally, in the rendering view, I selected each raised roof portion and dragged it flush with the top of the top chord (rafter) so it would show stucco between the rafter tails. Success ? Oh No, all my trusses are white and I don't see it in the materials selection. So the 2 questions I have are: 1. Is this a good way of showing the correct visual height and rafter tail size ? and 2. Can I easily change the truss exposed rafter tail to a wood color ?

Exposed rafters tails:heel height.plan

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You may paint them, but that will turn off auto rebuild framing.

 

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Or change the Fascia Material in defaults.

 

Avocado 2.jpg

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Wednesday - 3/1 - I've attached the latest file... Eric - I did like your suggestion on the garage layout - changed it up a bit so it will work for the topography. Lost one garage space

but the 2 car garage is only for storage. The plan shows where the driveway will come from. I was concerned about the affect of the heel height vs. height of patio cover,  so I have the roof raised 6.5" + 5.5" rafter ht = 12". This should be correct now although I will still have to close up the gaps you can see on the rendering. 

So now as I understand this, the best way to do a roof is 1 - Select gables (if wanted), 2 - Build roof automatically, 3 - If not satisfied with a particular roof - edit manually.

Make sure the manual edit roofs is checked in the build roof window so it doesn't keep changing on you. Is that the best way ?

Are there any issues with the roof that you see ? Opinions ?

The exterior walls at closet and wine cellar are not rendering properly. I don't understand what is going on.

When I have a wall (like the north wall at closet/wine cellar, should this be drawn as an exterior wall. I show it as an interior right now.

I think I'm getting there....

DeLuz_3.1.plan

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1 hour ago, Avocado said:

Eric - I did like your suggestion on the garage layout - changed it up a bit so it will work for the topography. Lost one garage space

 

I might change the garage area to add a bit of interest to the space. I would think carefully about getting in and out of the garages with your vehicles. The wall to the courtyard etc. I envisioned a circular drive approaching as you have shown, then exiting past the 3 car garage.

 

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1 hour ago, Avocado said:

So now as I understand this, the best way to do a roof is 1 - Select gables (if wanted), 2 - Build roof automatically, 3 - If not satisfied with a particular roof - edit manually.

 

That's it. Auto roofs work well, but for complex roofs, manual mods are usually needed.

 

1 hour ago, Avocado said:

The exterior walls at closet and wine cellar are not rendering properly. I don't understand what is going on.

 

The wine cellar has a 16' ceiling. Is that what you want? The raised area over the living room now extends over the closet and wine cellar -- is that correct?

 

 

 

You also have walls and roof that are out of alignment.

 

Avocado 3.jpg

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Thanks Eric! I agree the garages could use a bit more work. On the kitchen/nook area - I like it! Because of the views from the house, I needed the angle but  knew it just didn't work well. I'll work on that next... On the Ceiling height, I thought it looked better to widen the tall portion of the house so I increased the height of both the closet and wine cellar.Also I liked how the roof continued from the front loggia to the back porch area. I want to add small windows in this space. Since it will be empty space - I thought of having a pull down staircase in the closet to access this and use it for possible attic storage.

Did you notice how the exterior walls above the wine cellar showed exposed studs instead of just stucco ?

 

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