Shed dormer extending whole length of the roof - how to?

[kibalapa]

Hello HomeTalk Members!

I am not an architect but decided to play with HDA 2015 to see whether I can recreate a design I originally put together with PowerPoint. The design is that of a rather large garage (44' x 28') with an apartment above it. The apartment has a gable roof a cathedral ceiling spanning the whole length of the garage. One side of the apartment has three gable dormers and the other side has what is essentially a shed dormer. So, one side of each gable wall supports a 10" x 12" pitch roof whereas the other side of the wall supports the 5" x 12" pitch dormer roof. A single center beam spanning the structure makes this whole design possible possible.

It was relatively easy using the tutorials to create the three gable dormers. The problem is with the shed dormer. I can bring its walls close to the gable walls of the garage, but I cannot put the dormer walls on top of the gable walls. I understand this to be a limitation of the tool. Is there a work around?

Thank in advance for all helpful suggestions!

[Kbird1]

A few Pics would help but it doesn't actually sound like it is a real dormer ,just looks like one, if it is sitting on the exterior walls of the Garage . It sounds like what HD calls a Saltbox Roof and is one of the standard styles ( see Roof>Build>Roof types.) in that it is just a roof with two different slopes . if the main beam is in the centre ,eg 14ft off each wall then the two walls will need to be of uneven heights ,with the shed side being significantly higher with those pitches . eg double ? since one is 5/12 and the other 10/12 .

 

M

[kibalapa]

Hi Kbird1:

 

Thank you for replying. Indeed the wall on one side is 8' (that is where the 5/12 pitch roof is at), whereas the other wall is 2'6" - that is the wall where three dormers are located on the 10/12 pitch roof - see the attached East Side picture. The dormer tool does not let me just extend the gable wall and stick the 5/12 roof on top. Perhaps I am using the wrong approach, but I want to get the look you see on the picture. Actually, this thing is already up; my builder figured it all just from the PowerPoint sketch.

 

I am trying to do partitioning inside and design the interior of the upper floor, but that dormer wall sticking 6" from the gable wall inside is what is holding me back - see the camera view picture Inside East. In the actual structure it is all one surface - see East Inside - Photo.

 

Design-wise, I still have plenty of work to do to just clean it all up. I have not even started playing with stairs. Just for reference I have included the HDA 2015-created plan of the second floor.

 

BTW, I am using HDA 2015 on a MacBook Pro running 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor with 8GB of RAM. My experience might be slightly different than that of Windows users...

 

I looked at the Saltbox design you suggested. This article (http://www.homedesignersoftware.com/support/article/KB-00735/) shows the way, but it appears that there is a wall in the middle. Perhaps it can be made invisible. Again, I am not an architect and have just three days of experience with the software. Thus, I will need some step-by-step explanation of things that are quite obvious to the experienced users.

 

And one more thing how does one add this huge beam into the design? Soffit Tool?

 

Thanks again for replying.

 

[Kbird1]

I hadn't actually seen that tutorial ...it's not very good , points 10,11,12 etc are missing , they should of said to turn off Auto build roofs and then move the wall back to the original 30 ' mark I believe , etc.  by pulling the wall in (a guessimate you will need to play with) you can get the roof to build over the original wall at the correct height , eg 2'6"

 

All I do , is set the two end walls to Gable , then open the left wall , set the roof pitch to 10/12 ,, hit ok , open right hand wall , set roof pitch to 5/12 , hit ok go to the build roof dialog and build the roof with the correct options such as overhangs etc.  Then you have to play with your wall heights to get the Pitch to come to the centre of the roof. This is easy in Pro , as you are able to Change the height of the Roof Baseline , in the Roof Plane DBX , in other titles you may have to use the Tutorial method if you can't change the Roof plane or baseline height.

 

You don't need your Dormer , its not a dormer ,I think you can delete it.....  try this , do a SAVE AS  and make a second plan eg my garage plan #2 , then "play on the copy" incase things go wrong. Delete the dormer and just make the Saltbox / Double Pitch Roof  on the RH side. ( or top side in your plan by the looks.)

 

PS nice space

[Kbird1]

couple of other Tuts.  that may help too ,

 

http://www.homedesignersoftware.com/support/article/KB-00358/

 

http://www.homedesignersoftware.com/support/article/KB-00904/#

[kibalapa]

Mick:

 

Thanks! I have seen these two tutorials.They did not help me! The best solution to match what is there would be a dormer stuck on the gable walls - seems simple in PowerPoint...

 

I have been playing with the idea of gable roofs with two pitches, but I am getting lost in the dialogs. I see no easy way to adjust height of each wall separately in HDA 2015, i.e. I would like to set left wall to 2'4" and run from there a 10/12 pitch roof intersecting with 5/12 pitch roof that started from the right wall at 8'. On paper it seems like a simple task but it is not so in HDA - at least not to me...

 

I have tried using knee walls and different pitch options but it gets me nowhere. I do not understand what "Start at Height" refers to, or what "In From Baseline" means. These may be a well understood concepts to an architect, but to this guy that starts everything from the first principles, the definitions are not clear...

 

If I ever pull off the roof with two pitches I will have to make a fake overhang... As in the attached picture...

 

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

-Wall heights are controlled by the ROOF height not the other way around in HD/CA Titles , if you can in HDA you need to set the top wall's ROOF height to 2'6"

 

-Play on a 2nd plan not your "good" one till you get it right.

 

-Essentially you have a Gable Roof , just with two different slopes even though you have made it LOOK like a Shed Dormer for ascetic reasons (nice) as it breaks up that big tall Wall.

 

 

a thread from a month or two ago...

 

http://hometalk.homedesignersoftware.com/showthread.php?19439-How-to-add-a-dormer-to-the-attic-level&highlight=dormer

[Elovia]

Mick:

 

Thanks! I have seen these two tutorials.They did not help me! The best solution to match what is there would be a dormer stuck on the gable walls - seems simple in PowerPoint...

 

I have been playing with the idea of gable roofs with two pitches, but I am getting lost in the dialogs. I see no easy way to adjust height of each wall separately in HDA 2015, i.e. I would like to set left wall to 2'4" and run from there a 10/12 pitch roof intersecting with 5/12 pitch roof that started from the right wall at 8'. On paper it seems like a simple task but it is not so in HDA - at least not to me...

 

I have tried using knee walls and different pitch options but it gets me nowhere. I do not understand what "Start at Height" refers to, or what "In From Baseline" means. These may be a well understood concepts to an architect, but to this guy that starts everything from the first principles, the definitions are not clear...

 

If I ever pull off the roof with two pitches I will have to make a fake overhang... As in the attached picture...

 

You don't need to use the "upper pitch" option for the roof that you want.  That option is used primarily for a gambrel roof (aka barn roof) or a gull wing roof (the concave version of a barn roof).  The baseline is the interception of the roof plane and a vertical line projected upward from the outer edge of the wall's sill plate.  You would input a value in either the "start at height" or the "in from baseline" fields to determine where the "hinge" of the gambrel or gullwing roof plane would occur; the software will calculate the other value that you did not input from the pitch input.

 

You should be able to set the outer wall height by temporarily creating a wall below the center ridge that divides your upper floor in half for the full length of the building.  Then in the room specification dialog for each half, set the ceiling height to the desired outer wall height.  Set each roof plane pitch in the outer wall's specification dialog (roof tab, or roof line item in the selection box), thus overriding the defaults set in the build roof dialog.  Turn off the auto-rebuild roof option, delete your temporary wall, and set the room's ceiling height to the desired finished height.  If you're looking to create a cathedral ceiling, simply uncheck "ceiling over this room" in the room specification dialog.

 

The roof that you're attempting to make is easily done in Pro, but unfortunately not as easily done in Architectural (I understand that is the software title you're using).  You have a couple options:  have a Chief Architect X6 user create the roof plane in your model for you (and then set the plan to be editable by you), upgrade to Pro and do it yourself, or as you suggest fake it using other methods (I'm not sure if Home Designer Architectural has sloped soffits, but if so, I'd start there).

 

Good luck.

[Kbird1]

I had a play with this and

 

- the Saltbox tutorial doesn't work for you as it builds the roof on top of the 1st floor walls , not 42" higher where you need it ( 2'6" stud + 12" thick floor)

 

- You can add a blank 3rd floor and build the dormer with exterior walls on that 1/2 the plan, with an invisible wall splitting the length of the building ,so that you can set the room height to 96"  ( the second floor is set to 2'6" with this trick) ,turn off "floor under" this room

 

-Elovia's trick to split the 2nd floor works too same idea as above ,

 

Unfortunately with HDA you don't have manual roof planes as far as I know so you wont be able to add the Skirt Roof  ,which makes it look as if you have a Shed Dormer.

 

But at least you can do your wall layouts etc for the 2nd Storey which is what the Builder needs ...

 

Mick.

 

 

[Jo_Ann]

I can see that you have already added floor 2 with ceiling height at 30".  Add invisible wall down the center of the room. Open the room on the left and raise the finished ceiling to 8'.   Select the left wall and follow the roof tab settings shown in pic 2.  This creates the 'dormer'.

 

In pic 2, notice the invisible walls drawn around 3 walls of the building (they are dashed red). It is kind of like a really skinny (depth) invisible porch, and this forces a roof to build ( thus creating a 'fake overhang'). 

 

Pic 3 shows a close-up of the 'room' details  (the 'room' is colored gold, for clarity).

I hope the number details are clear enough to see.  

 

Pic 1 is the result you should get.  While creating this, some of your objects and settings may change or move.  Frustating, but just keep going back and resetting them until they behave. 

 

I hope this helps!  

 

When the roof is correct, turn OFF 'auto rebuild roof' and you can then delete the invisible porch and the 'fake overhang' roof will remain.

[Kbird1]

Nice JoAnn , I figured you'd have a work around of some kind

 

I'll have to try it , not sure why the Upper/lower Roof pitch setting is needed , as it looks like the 10/12 starts 12'9"  (153") off the wall unless that is where you Dormer roof ends?,

which means I guess that the "fake Porch Roof" is sitting on "top" (hiding) the other roof.

 

 

Mick.

[Jo_Ann]

Mick,

Try it and you'll see why the 153" is needed to straighten out the peak of the roof. 

[Kbird1]

Hi JoAnn

Yep got it The Dormer forms just fine when you do the split room trick ,which was why I wasn't seeing the need for the upper/lower pitch...and the roofs met at the peak as desired in this case.....

however when adding the skirt roof with your wall trick , it screwed up the Dormer walls , which the upper /lower pitch fixed .

Great Tip for those with Pro and Manual Roof Planes.

I was making Notes in a Text box on my test plan so I can Reference it later (from your post thx), and added some points others can use too I think.



Set floor 2 with ceiling height at 30".
Now Add invisible wall down the center of the room. Open the room
on the Top and raise the finished ceiling to 8' (Default). Select
the left wall and follow the roof tab settings shown in pic 2.
This creates the 'dormer'.

ie set the upper/lower slope pitches and the "in from baseline" #'s

You may need to play with Baseline # to get Roofs to meet on Ridge.

　
In pic 2, notice the invisible walls drawn around 3 walls of the
building (they are dashed red). It is kind of like a really skinny
(depth) invisible porch, and this forces a roof to build ( thus creating
a 'fake overhang').

　
ADD these walls on the 2nd floor , 30" should be set Auto.
Reduce Roof Overhang by amount new outer walls are off the
Real Walls . ie drawn at 10" make overhang 14" not 24"


And make sure to set the new End Walls as Gables ,

and the new Outer wall as 10/12 pitch.

　
　
Make sure to close ends of walls back to house
or you won't get a room definition or a Roof.

Pic 3 shows a close-up of the 'room' details (the 'room' is colored
gold, for clarity).

When the roof is correct, turn OFF 'auto rebuild roof' and you can then
delete the invisible porch and the 'fake overhang' roof will remain.

Delete Invisible Wall running lengthwise separating 2nd floor if desired,
(ensure auto Roof is OFF 1st ) and add your Interior walls.

[kibalapa]

Hello Mick, Elovia, and JoAnn:

 

Thank you all for replying with ideas. Do I have it right Mick and JoAnn that you created your solutions in the Pro version of the software?

 

Thanks, Peter (a.k.a. kibalapa)

[kibalapa]

Hello Again Mick, Elovia, and JoAnn:

 

OK! I get it! Using HDA 2015, I did get the shed dormer roof using the invisible wall in the middle. Let me see whether I can get the rest of the roof. Before asking the Pro question in the earlier post I should have tried the solutions with HDA.

 

I do appreciate all the advice that was so generously given - to the point of recreating the gist of my design.

 

Thanks! Peter

[Kbird1]

JoAnn , has HDA 10  and I have HD Pro 10 ( and HDA9)  but in my 2nd example I only used Tools available in HDA , ie I didn't use the Manual Roofs in my second example as a learning experience for myself , JoAnn's post and my Post #13 will get it done in HDA for you.

 

This is the one with JoAnn's method..........

 

 

[kibalapa]

Hello Again Mick & JoAnn:

 

I must be skipping some steps, or perhaps I am unclear on some points.

 

I had no problem getting two different pitches on the roof using invisible wall in the middle. (I did notice that other interior walls would not partition the space across but will only run to the invisible wall. I thought that perhaps after uncheking automatic roof rebuild and erasing this invisible wall I would be able to run other walls across. I was going to ask about it later.)

 

I then tried to get the second part by following JoAnn's steps as well. What I got does not look like what you are getting. I must be missing something. Perhaps it is that invisible wall... On her picture the end of the wall was also invisible. O mine it connected to the rest of the structure...

 

 

[Kbird1]

Yep you missed some steps....

"quote"

Make sure to close ends of walls back to house

or you won't get a room definition or a Roof.

At the end of the invisible wall you NEED to make a small 10" ? long return wall to the main house OR it will generate an "auto wall" as you see (blue)

Make sure you don't have these "auto walls" at the top corners too , ( should be nothing there) or you wont get the whole C shaped room as one room definition. and hence the Skirt roof generated.

"quote"

Delete Invisible Wall running lengthwise separating 2nd floor if desired

(ensure auto Roof is OFF 1st ) and add your Interior walls.

once the Invisible wall is deleted you can add interior walls as desired.

Mick

[Jo_Ann]

You CAN'T turn off 'auto build roof', then delete invisible wall, then draw skinny porch room and then REBUILD roof!  Your roof has to be correct in every way before you turn off 'auto build roof' and start deleting invisible walls!  You can't rebuild the roof again after making changes. 

 

Study the 2d floor plan pics again, and the settings listed.  YOU control those walls. The end wall (porch) is invisible too.

Also note in the 2nd floor pic, that 'use soffit surface for ceiling' is checked.  The overhang ceiling surface will not look correct unless you check that.

[Kbird1]

That is correct    and why deleting the invisible wall and adding Interior walls is the very last instruction in post #13.

 

 

M.

[kibalapa]

I got it... Finally! Thanks!

[Jo_Ann]

What?   No pic to share??

[Kbird1]

I know you put your heart and sole into this stuff and no pay off.......  ( where's my emoticon with the tears?) .............joking...... joking......          

 

at least there's a Thank You . most don't even bother with that....

 

M.

[kibalapa]

Sorry JoAnn & Mick!

I was getting on a flight on Saturday and wanted to quickly let you know that I succeeded using your suggestions. Somehow my follow up reply got lost; I composed it yesterday but did not press Post button until hours later, and it did not take when I finally did.

 

LHG 4b shows a cleaned-up application of your suggestions to the initial design. I tried along the way to add two visible side porches - see 4a, but things went bad when I added the first porch roof - see 4a1.

 

I solved this though by modifying JoAnn's invisible room. Instead of one spanning thinly along three walls, I used two thin invisible rooms next to two gable walls. The result - before cleaning, is shown on 5a, and the cleaned-up version as 5b.

 

Just curious, why is there this ugly triangle opening in the wall. It goes away when I clean up the plan removing the invisible wall. Still curious what makes it happen.

 

Thanks again, Peter

 

P.S.     These are for you Mick! I could not find one with tears of joy...

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

Nice !
using Invisible walls to make porches , is one I use all the time if there are no rails needed but I want the roof..... looks like your roof pitch was just set wrong initially and it grabbed onto and joined the skirt roof that was already there or the Room height was wrong for the porch room.

 

The disappearing wall is the automatic attic wall , the more you play with the design to fix things and use these kind of workarounds I find the more messed up they get. Sometimes it's just cos the 3d view hasn't been updated , so I use the F12 key ( Rebuild 3d) a lot in these situations to make sure something really isn't fixed yet or just needs updating...

Do you have corner boards on your Dormers or do you have another issue? I don't see them on the other corners ? and it's not usual for Log Homes.

You might want to continue the Skirt roof across the Front Façade too? ( or all 4 sides?)  to help keep the weather off the doors and for getting from side to side without getting wet , but it also helps to break up the Front so it doesn't look so large and imposing especially since it is Log.... perhaps that's the look though ?

 

kinda like this but up higher :

 

 

here is a PDF of an article from a few years ago....

 

 

Mick.