The best way to explain what i am doing is...draw a foundation and try to put some 8x16 or 12x16 cmu interior piers in place with measurements from the outside of the foundation to center of the piers and measurements between the piers oc. It appears that when using "piers", i cant figure it out, also when using geo shapes its very hard to get the dems to work out and the footing has to be drawn separately. There has to be a easier way that how i am doing it, I have read for a extended amount of time on this and just cant find a easy way to get it done. I know it has to be very simple because this is a very important part of drawing 101 and i am embarrassed that i cant figure it out. Thanks for any help i can get. Rick (also working on signature now)